Big East/ACC
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Listened to a sportstalk show driving to the Sunshine State and B1G and SEC are likely to field 24-25 teams in NCAA field. This will be the watershed moment for Big East. Not exactly a Pitino fan but you have to respect people with vision and he saw what was barreling down the tracks.
Ackerman did not make any definitive statement about a Big East/ACC merger. She did mention working on plans to build alliances to ensure D1 basketball remains viable for non power/football conferences. She feels that there will be a natural aggregation of those schools investing at high levels of player compensation.
We haven't given anyone a significant reason to include us. You can have all the discussions you want at the administration level, but results on the court matter too. Now, of course, you can say what about DePaul? What about Georgetown (prior to this year). Sure, but they are already in, so there's nothing that can be done about it. The only thing that would moot on court results would be the money requiring Dayton to be in. And by money, I mean either Fox or ESPN, or whoever holds current/future broadcast rights. We have a natural rivalry with X, but not really with anyone else in BE. Neither does SLU or VCU. So it doesn't seem like it would be a ratings driven issue.
If BE does merge with ACC into a BBall and football conference, yeah, that's probably the end of Dayton's chances of getting into the BE. But, as I've contended all along, we don't have to be in the BE to be successful. It would help in certain ways, but could hurt in others. There is something to be one of the top dogs in a fairly competitive conference like A10, but that requires us to win more on the court than we are.
I think we should view the revenue sharing as an opportunity. There was a post on the A10 Board about schools opting in and it sounded like UD, VCU and SLU were the only schools to date to make an announcement. I also read somewhere a comment about the A10 having a mandatory minimum? I suspect that the minimum will be a number that is well below the amount needed to be truly competitive, and schools are going to have to participate in the legal settlement. VCU announced that they’ll be paying $4 to $5 million which is close to or exceeds almost all of the A10 MBB budgets. An ideal situation would be a voluntary “thinning of the herd” where the A10 gets a smaller number of teams that are committed to operating differently. Is this a pipe dream? Probably, but our best option right now is for the A10 getting better.
Key points by Ackerman on realignment:
- Did not discount ACC-BE alignment out of hand, partially out of respect to Coach K and Pitino who are the ones advocating it but does seem like it is way on back burner. (Probably dependent on football considerations)
- "I do think realignment is likely, if not certain."
- "...we've had conversations with West Coast schools about Big East membership and geography has always gotten in the way for us. Nobody wanted to take on the cross-country travel that would be involved with certain options."
- "..given the maximum contest limit, for example, in basketball, right now you can only play 28 games unless you play in a tournament that allows you have two or three games, so-called MTEs...At some point, there's not enough games to accommodate more schools if the goal is to play each other and develop rivalries and all that sort of stuff. So I think there may be a natural limit at some point to conference growth."
- "...once schools start opting into the revenue sharing model, you may see another reconfiguration of schools that are spending and sharing revenue with their athletes and schools that don't."
- "...the Big East, we're opting in. All of our schools are going to opt into the model. That's been established for our league."
- "...I think in other leagues, there's still questions about whether the league is in as a whole, whether certain schools are in, certain schools are out."
- "...And so I think you may see realignment on the basis of who's opting in and who isn't. And who's opting in at a certain level versus schools that are opting in at a lower level."
- "..., I think you're going to need a year or two or three or maybe more for that to shake out. But I think given, again, the changes in the model, it seems to me realignment is going forward is going to be all but certain.
- Did not discount ACC-BE alignment out of hand, partially out of respect to Coach K and Pitino who are the ones advocating it but does seem like it is way on back burner. (Probably dependent on football considerations)
- "I do think realignment is likely, if not certain."
- "...we've had conversations with West Coast schools about Big East membership and geography has always gotten in the way for us. Nobody wanted to take on the cross-country travel that would be involved with certain options."
- "..given the maximum contest limit, for example, in basketball, right now you can only play 28 games unless you play in a tournament that allows you have two or three games, so-called MTEs...At some point, there's not enough games to accommodate more schools if the goal is to play each other and develop rivalries and all that sort of stuff. So I think there may be a natural limit at some point to conference growth."
- "...once schools start opting into the revenue sharing model, you may see another reconfiguration of schools that are spending and sharing revenue with their athletes and schools that don't."
- "...the Big East, we're opting in. All of our schools are going to opt into the model. That's been established for our league."
- "...I think in other leagues, there's still questions about whether the league is in as a whole, whether certain schools are in, certain schools are out."
- "...And so I think you may see realignment on the basis of who's opting in and who isn't. And who's opting in at a certain level versus schools that are opting in at a lower level."
- "..., I think you're going to need a year or two or three or maybe more for that to shake out. But I think given, again, the changes in the model, it seems to me realignment is going forward is going to be all but certain.
I think Ackerman's insights are very about realignment based on level of opting in apply more to the A-10 than the BE. All the BE schools are opting in but I can't see all the A-10 of being of the same mind. The problem I see is that I don't see a majority will want to make the commitment for going all in. So there will not a relegation of the bottom but the 3-6 schools that want to go in will need to find a new home. If that isn't the BE, it may to be some combination of the top schools of smaller conferences (MVC, Conf USA...) that will be willing to make the commitment.
It looks like the giant conferences are consolidating the power as predicted. And the ACC and Big East are wisely going to make a move to make sure they are still at the table for march madness. I think once they are set, the tournament will essentially just be for the big 10, big 12, SEC and the ACC/Big East combo. No one else will be invited. The governing body of the NCAA will be (and already sort of is) effectively irrelevant. They won't need the NCAA to host some lucrative march madness tournament co-hosted by a tv network.
All the other schools will be left fighting for the crumbs. And the new 'cinderella's' of march will be the 17th place power school of any one of those four mega conferences. No more UMBC or St. Peters.
If UD is left out of this alignment, i fear that we will essentially forever be relegated to would be essentially be the championship level, which is the level below English Premiere League. Only with no hope of ever qualifying for the higher league.
We are definitely not in a position of strength right now.
All the other schools will be left fighting for the crumbs. And the new 'cinderella's' of march will be the 17th place power school of any one of those four mega conferences. No more UMBC or St. Peters.
If UD is left out of this alignment, i fear that we will essentially forever be relegated to would be essentially be the championship level, which is the level below English Premiere League. Only with no hope of ever qualifying for the higher league.
We are definitely not in a position of strength right now.
Not sure I agree. The NCAA, and thus the schools, make a significant chunk of money off the NCAA tournament. It's a completely different beast than the FBS and I don't think it would garner the significant revenue from ESPN or CBS or whoever, for a P4 tournament. Of course, I could be very wrong about it. A better guess is they continue to tweak the formula that excludes as many non-P4/BE teams as possible while not killing the golden goose. They will do that by not being able to schedule any Q1/Q2 opponents from those conferences, so your NET ranking will suffer and only conference tournament champions will ever make it. No more at-large bids for non P4/BE conferences.
Why would those four super-conferences need the NCAA's permission to run their own tournament? I don't believe they do anymore. I'm not really sure what function the ncaa even has any more.
If those four conferences started their own tourney, people would complain. But then they'd get over it. And the real march madness would become a thing of the past. "Cinderella" is a relative term. A 17th place team in a super conference could win a couple games in the tourney and steal america's hearts for a bit. Look at NC State last year. A pretty unremarkable regular season that became an impressive run. People will still watch. It's depressing to think about, but those big conferences have been gunning for this for a long time.
You can see by the way the NET is counted that there's no way to compete as a non-power conference. And you can tell by the way the whole non-conference tourney talk is going. There's nothing in it for the big boys to even play in those anymore. What do they get out of losing to a team like Dayton in hawaii? Why do it? There's really no good upside for them to play smaller teams anywhere but on their home court.
If those four conferences started their own tourney, people would complain. But then they'd get over it. And the real march madness would become a thing of the past. "Cinderella" is a relative term. A 17th place team in a super conference could win a couple games in the tourney and steal america's hearts for a bit. Look at NC State last year. A pretty unremarkable regular season that became an impressive run. People will still watch. It's depressing to think about, but those big conferences have been gunning for this for a long time.
You can see by the way the NET is counted that there's no way to compete as a non-power conference. And you can tell by the way the whole non-conference tourney talk is going. There's nothing in it for the big boys to even play in those anymore. What do they get out of losing to a team like Dayton in hawaii? Why do it? There's really no good upside for them to play smaller teams anywhere but on their home court.
They don't need their permission. That's not the point. The point is that anything new they wanted to do would likely have significantly less appeal, and fewer $$$ attached. In addition, the current CBS contract runs through 2032. While contracts can be broken/renegotiated, I would find it difficult to believe CBS would agree to do so. They know how much extra attention they get out of the Cinderella story every year.
I agree. The ideal situation would be for a smaller A10 (keeping the name vs starting a new conference) made up of schools that operate like “high mid-majors”. If it’s 10 existing members that would be better than where we are today. If it’s six existing members and 4 new members that’s probably even better. I don’t see a lot of the existing members making the necessary commitment though. This is the problem with the A10. There are schools with shit tons of money that run their basketball programs on a shoestring budget (Davidson, GW) and schools (SBU and LaSalle) that simply don’t have the resources. Maybe it takes UD, VCU, SLU and a couple of other schools threaten to leave to right the floundering A10 ship.
CBS wouldn't have a monopoly on the tourney. It wouldn't be with the ncaa. If CBS didn't like what the big boys want, the big boys would just go to another network that would happily make a deal for that tournament and sell it to the masses. Those mega conferences will have all the power. And i think the networks would be so desperate to get the deal, they'd be happy to leave the little guys out.
They do through 2032. And the only way out of it is to break the existing contract, which that's not happening, or renegotiate for a different format/amount. It would require pulling out of the NCAA at minimum basketball for all schools in the P4/BE. Heck, even the football teams haven't done that, and I expect the NCAA has pretty significant leverage over the schools and conferences, at least for now. Despite the College Bowl Series for football, all of those teams and conferences are still part of the NCAA. The NCAA would have to dissolve for that to happen, and they're not going to give up their gravy train either, at least not without a significant and lengthy court fight.
In 1970 the NCAA Tournament and NIT were separate entities, Marquette turned down NCAA bid and went to NIT instead because of an issue had with their seeding location. No reason P4 schools couldn’t turn down NCAA bids to go to a new tournament
Sure, anything could happen. But the likelihood is pretty near zero, at least in the near term. I think you'd be hard pressed for another network to put together a deal, format, and payout that would pull teams away from NCAA tournament. I mean, sure, the Saudi sports fund could come in with some obscene amount of money and convince Fox Sports or someone to put something together. I think there would be significant backlash and lawsuits that would tie it up for a long period of time.
My man-- don't forget that DePaul, to some, was an even bigger rival than Xavier ever was. Many still hate DePaul, Marquette, Notre Dame, etc from long-standing rivalries.
ACC reached a settlement with Florida St and Clemson today. Grant of Rights ends after 29-30 season with a greatly reduced exit fee. ACC teams will spread like wind to the Big 10, SEC and Big Twelve. This really changes the dynamic for an ACC/Big East merger. There may be a few teams left over from the ACC join up with the Big East but it will be a very small number.
Just spent good amount of 1:1 time with an ACC decision-maker. BE would love merger (not same level of interest from ACC) so way overblown the short-term likelihood. ACC all about football, football, and football improvement now that they have stability. And yes then basketball. Only way BE + ACC makes sense is if materially improves TV $.
For those of you who argue Dayton does not deserve BE, if expansion today instead of 10 years ago, Dayton would be in over Butler as more TV watchers and better attendance. BE has not made a dent into Indy market and Butler does not have huge amount of eyeballs. BTW, when I say TV $, it is TV and more and more it is streaming.
For those of you who argue Dayton does not deserve BE, if expansion today instead of 10 years ago, Dayton would be in over Butler as more TV watchers and better attendance. BE has not made a dent into Indy market and Butler does not have huge amount of eyeballs. BTW, when I say TV $, it is TV and more and more it is streaming.
There's a huge difference between wanting to find a new partner and a new partner wanting to find you. I think some of the ACC teams are grossly overestimating their appeal. But to me, this makes one of two possible scenarios more likely:
1. BE/ACC merger. Has a football division, which helps UConn, and keeps it going for Duke, UNC, Wake, VT, etc.
2. Football just completely rolls out of the NCAA conference structure into 4 divisions of N/S/E/W and more traditional conferences remain for rest of sports.
1. BE/ACC merger. Has a football division, which helps UConn, and keeps it going for Duke, UNC, Wake, VT, etc.
2. Football just completely rolls out of the NCAA conference structure into 4 divisions of N/S/E/W and more traditional conferences remain for rest of sports.
The B10 and SEC aren’t going to add new members if it dilutes TV revenues to its members. Washington and Oregon accepted around 50% of USC and UCLA’s distribution because the networks weren’t paying up. I think UNC and Florida State and maybe Virginia could move the needle, but I don’t see the other ACC schools bringing enough value to the SEC or B10.
I read that the SEC and B10 are pushing for 4 automatic qualifiers each for the CFP. I don’t see them pushing for any breaking up of their conferences.
This isn’t the first time the High Point to A-10 rumor has been going around. I suspect it is wish casting by some High Point fan.
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I feel like Gilligan on an island, nobody up in the 300 level media with me tonight.
Oh man I can see you from the Flight Deck!!
Get your buddies in the first row to join you!
It might not mean much but speculation is high at the Big East tournament that UD was coming to the BE.
My nephew graduated from Georgetown and attended the Tournament. He claims multiple people talked about UD was joining the BE
My nephew graduated from Georgetown and attended the Tournament. He claims multiple people talked about UD was joining the BE
I would think there'd be more smoke here if it was anytime soon. Seems to me it's just speculation at best, unfortunately.
Sounds like it's unlikely the Big East and ACC merge anytime soon according to @ruechalgrin. I follow whatever he says with his connections 
While I want it to happen, not sure it will happen soon.
1) Dayton’s recent performance this season isn’t something NBE would be rushing to get.
2) NBE is about to have a fantastic Friday night, one they haven’t had in a while. St John’s-Marquette, UConn-Creighton.
MSG this week is back to its old vibes.
Dayton played X, Marquette, and UConn this year… they also have the support of St John’s (Pitino). Seems like solid engagement from some of the key programs.
If there is a time for BE to make a move, it’s now. They need to add strong basketball programs like Dayton and VCU. Both make a lot of sense and add quality to the conference.
If there is a time for BE to make a move, it’s now. They need to add strong basketball programs like Dayton and VCU. Both make a lot of sense and add quality to the conference.
And have the financial commitment… Maybe it gets a guy like Odom to stay as well.
We have been waiting since 2013 for an invite. Give up the dream and accept we are forever stuck in A10
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